Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

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Jay
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Re: Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

Post by Jay »

The fact that a majority (60%) of his symptoms have returned is pretty indicative of the procedure having been unnecessary. If the prostate was the source of the problem, removing it should've left no room for any sort of recurrence.

Shame that the poor fellow has to go through this situation. That said, accepted science has told us for some time now that the prostate was not the generator of CPPS. The name of the condition even shifted away from referencing the gland.
I am not a physician. This is not medical advice. Consult your doctor!

Age: 26 Onset Age: 17 Symptoms: Shooting, nerve-like pains throughout the penis, which abruptly hit and leave. Testicular pain, perineum pain, burning/irritative urination, extended pain after ejaculation. Occasionally, some allodynia or ache in the coccyx/sacrum/thigh/buttocks/legs. Diagnosis: Pelvic floor dysfunction, degenerated lumbar disk, and mildly herniated lumbar disk. Helped By: Physical therapy, pain management doctor, hot baths, therapy pool, stretching regimen, breathing exercises, relaxation, distraction. Worsened By: Arousal/ejaculation (worst), constipation, panicking/obsessing, other triggers depend upon current symptoms. Tests/Prior Treatments: Too many antibiotics to count, multiple urine tests (all normal), testicular ultrasound (normal), bladder and renal ultrasound (normal), lumbar and pelvic MRI with and w/o contrast (revealed disk problems), Elavil 25mg (caused retention), Flomax 0.4mg.
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Re: Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

Post by mchenlo »

webslave wrote:If you want to remove your prostate despite what you have learned here, go right ahead. Let us know how it went.
I've learned a lot from you guys, all I'm trying to say is that you don't need to discredit doctors or other means of treatment for folks who might be desperate. A little humbleness on your part will help. Sincerely, MC
Age: 52 | Onset Age: 50 | Symptoms: current S(groin,leg,pubic pain); occasional body aches | Helped By: hot/cold showers; yoga; pelvic massage | Worsened By: sex more than once a week
superuse
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Re: Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

Post by superuse »

mchenlo wrote:I've learned a lot from you guys, all I'm trying to say is that you don't need to discredit doctors or other means of treatment for folks who might be desperate. A little humbleness on your part will help. Sincerely, MC
Nobody has questioned the guy's skills on the 1500 radical prostatectomy patients, it is the very very experimental procedure of removing 10 prostates to reduce pain and (incidentally?) discovering 90% have cancer. This seems so odd by itself it is kind of beyond belief, even if they all were 60+ yrs old.

It's regretful, but some of us have seen men go with some or the the full Monty, whichever one they hit on first being first, pudendal nerve blocks, nerve cryoablation, testicle removal , cord stripping, intraprostatic injections by Bahn or the unfortunates with ultimate quack Dr Song, prostate removal, PNE op, and then showing up at their first PT exposure at the Wise clinic. With this much stuff performed, perhaps not much use (or not)

-jjf
Age:43 | Onset Age:36 | Symptoms: First urinary and backside, golf ball feeling, now ok (no heavy exercise) . Major onset seemed to be with heavy coughing spell , felt "tearing" or nerve pain in rectum/prostate. | Helped By:Hot showers,sleep.Worsened By: Type A obsessiveness ... Stressing, what-if thinking, weights.
Not a doctor. -

The usual... anxiety prone programmer (my case), accountant, lawyer or self employed sitting 50 hrs/week combined with compulsively exercising on a bike,weights or running to compensate for stress. Also aka "graduate student syndrome" New email [email protected]
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Re: Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

Post by mikey33 »

Webslave, you are very good at bashing people you do not agree with, I will give you that.

Krongrad has done more for men with prostatitis than 98% of other "doctors" out there. I have spoken to him on a few occasions, and EVERY SINGLE TIME, he strongly encouraged me to seek every other alternative PRIOR to considering LRP. This is not something he throws around lightly, and he does not operate on men until they feel they have tried everything else. His web-site alone has provided men suffering with prostatitis the ability to interact and share stories, ideas, scams, etc. How many other reputable surgeons do you see offering this sort of outlet? I know, I know, you think it is to drive business his way. Interesting, though, when I have the financial resources and time for surgery, yet he feels I should continue to seek alternative options.....
33 year old suffering from prostatitis (currently in "remission"). | Symptoms: burning urination (always there), burning urethra, sore testicles, burning ejaculation, throbbing penis after ejaculation, frequent urination, electric-type shocks in rectum. Currently take C/Quercetin from TwinLabs, D-3, Zinc, Pro-biotic, Zoloft, Nexium (as needed). Have tried Doxy, Amoxicillin, Zithromax, etc. None worked. Also tried pelvic floor PT but was a waste of time for my situation.

Best treatment has been ejaculation at least once every two days. It has held overall symptoms at bay.
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Re: Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

Post by webslave »

mikey33 wrote:I have spoken to him on a few occasions, and EVERY SINGLE TIME, he strongly encouraged me to seek every other alternative PRIOR to considering LRP.
In my opinion, he does that for 2 very good reasons:

1) Covering his butt:

Krongrad: "Your Honor, I advised the patient on several occasions to seek every other alternative treatment. Here, I have it diarised as evidence."

Judge: "Let me see the clinical record ...[looks at Krongrad's notes] .. hmmm... Mr Mikey, it does appear that you were advised several times not to proceed with this radical surgery until you had tried every other option. Do you have documented proof that you tried every other option? Because if not, I must dismiss this case."

2) Psychological pre-conditioning:

Krongrad knows, as do most of us, that urologists are usually of little or no help to patients. The number of people who end up going to specialised clinics, like the Wise-Anderson one, is vanishingly small, just a fraction of a percent of those who have the condition, so he's not concerned about that. And even the W-A clinic will not cure you on the spot, but rather put you on the path to a cure, which may take months or even a year or two of applied effort. You'd be surprised how many people are completely unwilling to put in that effort and instead are desperately seeking an instant cure via pill, injection, nerve "decompression", or even prostate removal. So if Krongrad senses any hesitation on your part, he sends you off on a wild goose chase again and again, knowing that it's very unlikely you will find a cure anywhere. This simply makes you more and more committed to him and his operation, and with a strong mental commitment to the treatment, you are far less likely to react negatively afterwards, should the outcome be a bad one. It's called pre-conditioning the patient.
This is not something he throws around lightly, and he does not operate on men until they feel they have tried everything else. His web-site alone has provided men suffering with prostatitis the ability to interact and share stories, ideas, scams, etc. How many other reputable surgeons do you see offering this sort of outlet? I know, I know, you think it is to drive business his way.
Yes, I do think it's to drive business his way. Isn't it exactly what the Chinese scamster Dr Song did? In fact, I'd go as far as to say that any doctor who has his own discussion forum is to be looked upon with deep suspicion. It's simply not something that reputable doctors and surgeons do.
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Re: Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

Post by mikey33 »

Have you ever had a conversation with the man? If so, what did you discuss? Why would ANY reputable and legitimate doctor NOT attempt to cover their butt? Let's hope you have spoken with Dr. Krongrad since you are so confident in answer 2 above. You would have to have pretty good detail of how someone works - through interactions - to know that is truly how they are from a psychological perspective. I would have love to have a conversation with Dr. Wise if he would ever return my phone calls.

How is it that Krongrad is far more reputable than Wise or Anderson are? I think anyone who has a web-site that is ties to the Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol should be looked at with deep suspision as well. Why is it you attempt to tear down other doctors and programs that are no affiliated with Wise-Anderson? What is your motive?

Are you really comparing a world-renown surgeon to a scam-artist and shady Chinese "doctor"? Why not compare him to Polachek or Feliciano, other well-known scammers?
33 year old suffering from prostatitis (currently in "remission"). | Symptoms: burning urination (always there), burning urethra, sore testicles, burning ejaculation, throbbing penis after ejaculation, frequent urination, electric-type shocks in rectum. Currently take C/Quercetin from TwinLabs, D-3, Zinc, Pro-biotic, Zoloft, Nexium (as needed). Have tried Doxy, Amoxicillin, Zithromax, etc. None worked. Also tried pelvic floor PT but was a waste of time for my situation.

Best treatment has been ejaculation at least once every two days. It has held overall symptoms at bay.
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Re: Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

Post by webslave »

Careful, I don't tolerate attacks like this, but I'll answer you this once.
Have you ever had a conversation with the man? If so, what did you discuss?
I had an email exchange with him, where he broke off without replying to some of my comments.

Why would ANY reputable and legitimate doctor NOT attempt to cover their butt?
Indeed, especially if you are going to perform radical surgery that may leave a man impotent, and still in pain.
Let's hope you have spoken with Dr. Krongrad since you are so confident in answer 2 above. You would have to have pretty good detail of how someone works - through interactions - to know that is truly how they are from a psychological perspective.
I said it was my opinion. I have seen that sort of behaviour in other people who prey on the vulnerable: first soften them up, make them into converts, and in so doing make sure the legal consequences and problems of botched and unsuccessful procedures are minimized. Yes, I do believe this man is preying on vulnerable people.
I would have love to have a conversation with Dr. Wise if he would ever return my phone calls.
Others have said they have been able to call him and talk to him without a problem. Perhaps he's avoiding you? Are you the same Mike who was involved with the old prostatitis website, the one that libelled him repeatedly? If not, all I can say is that I know he gets so many calls that he's had to step back from chatting to just anyone who calls him.
How is it that Krongrad is far more reputable than Wise or Anderson are?
Is he? Wise and Anderson's studies have been published in the most prestigious urology journals, which makes them a good deal more reputable than Krongrad. Krongrad seems pretty good at self-promotion, with several websites and his own "Institute". He seems to have bedazzled you, that's for sure.
I think anyone who has a web-site that is ties to the Wise-Anderson Protocol should be looked at with deep suspision as well. Why is it you attempt to tear down other doctors and programs that are no affiliated with Wise-Anderson? What is your motive?
I only "tear down" people I believe are harming this patient group. There are plenty of doctors and therapists I think are pretty good at their jobs. But someone who cuts out a man's prostate to "cure" a non-prostate condition is beyond the pale, to me. Just because the condition can affect the gland is NOT a good reason to remove the gland!

I support the W-A protocol in particular because it's on the right track with the combination of psychological and neuromuscular approaches. It's how I made myself better, even before Wise and Anderson came along, so of course I'm going to support them. And I support Dr Shoskes and quercetin, because that helped me and helps about ¾ of patients. And I still have my prostate, and it's pain-free, even though it was once too painful to touch and all I wanted from my uro was to cut it out!
Are you really comparing a world-renown surgeon to a scam-artist and shady Chinese "doctor"? Why not compare him to Polachek or Feliciano, other well-known scammers?
I am, I surely am comparing him to Song. Polachek and Feliciano didn't go as far as setting up their own recruitment forums. That's Song-level stuff. Krongrad may be a legend in his own (and your) eyes, but he's just a fast-talking manipulator to me.
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Re: Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

Post by webslave »

I think what people are saying about Arnon Krongrad at ratemds.com is also pertinent. Most disturbing is the report where the patient states that Krongrad accidentally perforated his bowel, and knew about it (hence the suture in the bowel in an attempt to cover it up). This is malpractice, plain and simple. I can't think of a bigger red flag.

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Re: Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

Post by webslave »

It should be mentioned that Arnon Krongrad (AK) has recently published a paper in the online journal called UroToday International Journal (UIJ). It's supposedly peer-reviewed, but Medline does not index it. UIJ apparently publishes papers that more reputable and reliable journals won't touch.

In this paper, AK has selected 6 patients who underwent LRP for CPPS. He states that these are "the first 6 consecutive patients enrolled" in his trial, and surprise, surprise, all 6 of them had their CPSI scores drop from a median of 35 pre-surgery to 7.5 one year after surgery.

Weirdly, all 6 patients had had previous surgery, including: 3 epididymectomies, 1 orchiectomy, 1 urethral dilation, 1 transurethral microwave prostate treatment, 1 transurethral incision of the prostate, 1 bladder neck incision, 1 transurethral prostatectomy, and 1 lumbar fusion with subsequent removal of hardware. You can see that these men are keen to have surgery in their attempt to get better!

Even more remarkably, AK found "organ-confined foci of prostate adenocarcinoma (with Gleason scores 5 and 6) in 4 out of the 6 patients". So two thirds had prostate cancer, at an average age of 48! This is a highly unusual set of patients.

Of course, the devil is in the details. One of the patients developed urinary incontinence after the operation (hello diapers), and many lost their ability to have an erection. AK glosses over this with the imprecise "recovery of erectile function was variable", but pointedly does not say if any of them were fully potent after the operation. Some clearly could not achieve an erection ever again, some only a partial erection.
Run, don't walk!
Run, don't walk!
unnecessary-surgery-doc.png (6.96 KiB) Viewed 376 times
Sceptics may wonder if these were indeed the first 6 patients who underwent the surgery, or if this is a carefully selected group of 6 patients (selected in order to make the procedure look remarkably successful). If these are selected patients from a larger group of patients who underwent surgery, most without positive outcome, then this would be scientific fraud. Since we don't know what actually happened, we cannot say if fraud was committed or not. The almost unbelievable results are certainly highly suspicious to my mind. In these circumstances, I would advise even those who have failed all conservative treatments to wait and see if these results are replicated by other doctors before considering this surgery.
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Re: Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

Post by webslave »

Tragic follow-up. 47-yr old Alabama coach who had his prostate removed for prostatitis commits suicide. He leaves a wife and three children. If only he had come to this forum first!
http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2 ... ed-gunshot
http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2012 ... ce_sc.html
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/326663/ ... otball.htm
An autopsy performed Wednesday confirmed Crain's cause of death. "The cause of death is going to be a gunshot wound to the head, and the manner of death is suicide," said Baldwin County coroner Stan Vinson.

Crain, 47, joined the South Alabama coaching staff in 2008 and served as the linebackers coach for his first three seasons before switching to the defensive line this spring. He was an All-America linebacker at Auburn.

During the 2011 season, Crain was diagnosed with prostatitis, an infection of the prostate, and he underwent at least three procedures to deal with it. Most of his prostate was removed and the prostatitis forced him to miss one of the Jags' games and some practice sessions.
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Re: Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

Post by neis »

Long time since I've posted here. This is a sad story, and I believe the unstated association with the poor guys *prostate* issues are the reasons. After long-term dormancy, my symptoms came back. Not with a vengeance, but problematic. Webslave, do you know any more about his case, and why they chose to remove the prostate so early in his struggles?
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Re: Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

Post by webslave »

No, I don't know more than what can be gleaned from the press articles. Here's another:
Last season, Crain suffered with prostatitis, an infection of the prostate, which required at least three surgeries during the season. The illness forced him to miss the Jags' game at North Carolina State and he also missed some practices. Crain had said he lost 32 pounds in the early stages of the disease and the treatment. Most of his prostate had been removed.
This is what happens when you treat prostatitis with surgery. It's like trying to kill a fly with a 20 lb sledgehammer. But what can you expect with people like Krongrad (and other uros treating CP/CPPS with prostatectomy) running around unchecked?
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Re: Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

Post by webslave »

Just another update about the unwanted effects of a prostatectomy. This is from a study published this month (Jan 2013) in Urology:
Treatments for prostate cancer can result in a little-mentioned adverse effect — a smaller penis, according to a new study.

In addition, men with reduced penile size were significantly more likely to regret treatment than those without size loss.

The adverse effect of penile shortening is "rarely mentioned" by physicians, they point out. 10% or less of doctors who treat prostate cancer routinely discuss reduction in penis size.

If the potential for size loss was more widely discussed, more men might consider active surveillance as a treatment option, Dr. Nguyen acknowledged.

A smaller penis has far-ranging effects for a man, according to the study results.

Reduced penile size was significantly associated with more treatment regret and an increased risk for interference with close emotional relationships on multivariate analysis, adjusted for age, treatment type, and baseline comorbidity. There was also a nearly significant impact on another measure — the "overall enjoyment" in life.

Urology. 2013;81:130-135, 134. Abstract, Editorial comment
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Re: Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

Post by superuse »

Is Prostate removal anywhere near a mainline treatment for a University coach or anyone like this? Outside a few Dr's you rarely hear of it. Nearly everyone here (with prostatitis diagnosis) goes thru a year or two of sitz baths and antibiotics at least. He must have something sure show up on imaging and possibly other factors. Clear infection, enlargement, pre cancerous lesion lotsa pain perhaps to make the judgement?

-j
Age:43 | Onset Age:36 | Symptoms: First urinary and backside, golf ball feeling, now ok (no heavy exercise) . Major onset seemed to be with heavy coughing spell , felt "tearing" or nerve pain in rectum/prostate. | Helped By:Hot showers,sleep.Worsened By: Type A obsessiveness ... Stressing, what-if thinking, weights.
Not a doctor. -

The usual... anxiety prone programmer (my case), accountant, lawyer or self employed sitting 50 hrs/week combined with compulsively exercising on a bike,weights or running to compensate for stress. Also aka "graduate student syndrome" New email [email protected]
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Re: Prostatitissurgery.com, Arnon Krongrad, Christopher Eden

Post by webslave »

Nope. AlI he needs is someone who has "failed other treatments". Almost all of this forum's members would be suitable candidates for prostate removal, according to this small and unethical group of surgeons.
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