DR Song in China

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robertpagen
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Post by robertpagen »

it has been quite a while since I visited the site. It pleases me that you are still sharp and it is a good move that you post the warning on Dr Song and other charlatans. Kudos to the patient for sharing the info with you.

All Be well,

Robert
Age: 43 | Onset Age: 17 | Symptoms: previously: constant urgency, premature ejaculation, burning at tip of penis, pelvic ache current: semi annual flares. | Helped By: PT, yoga, stretch, keeping warm(long johns) boxer briefs, regular sleep routine | Worsened By: cystoscopy, antibiotics (fluoroquinolones) alcohol, coffee, stress, masturbation, cold
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Post by webslave »

There seems to be a tag team of husband and wife‡ promoting Song on the internet at the moment. They both claim to be ex-patients who were "cured" of pelvic pain by Song, who uses unknown drugs in his painful injections into the pelvis. They both claim to have been infected for years with chlamydia trachomatis, as diagnosed by Song, despite extensive antibiotic treatments (note: studies show that most chlamydia infections are easily cured with antibiotics in a short time, for example 97%+ infected women cured with just one dose of azithromycin [PMID 16432482]).

The tireless efforts of these two on various boards is very unusual, from my point of view. I've been a daily observer of the Internet discussion concerning this topic for over a decade. I am sure I've read more messages about this topic than anyone else in the world. I have never seen this sort of behaviour before — not from a single man, and most certainly not from a husband/wife team that invites strangers looking for a cure to send emails, and constantly, on a daily basis, encourages people to undertake this $20K+ treatment :!:

My conclusion about this pair is that they are either Good Samaritans who are unique in the history of this disorder, or, less happily, they are working in some way for Song, or having their debt to Song excused on a commission basis, based on numbers of new patients recruited. A correspondent pointed out that Song offered to pay one of our posters some of his money back in exchange for silence over his failed treatment, so the latter option looks very possible.

In addition, having often witnessed the difficult decisions men have to navigate in deciding who should be paid lots of money for treatment, I find the quick acceptance of Song's unknown and unpublished protocol and glib decision to spend a huge amount of money going to see him by some of the other posters, responding to this team, to be odd. It is possible that one or more of this willing and naively eager group are sock puppets created by the pair to encourage other posters to submit to the herd instinct and go with the flow.

That is why I continue to caution men not to be guinea pigs for invasive and unstudied treatments, especially those available from shadowy figures in fringe countries that operate, to a greater or lesser extent, outside the high standards of American, European and Australian/NZ medicine.

----
for the future reference of patients who succumb to their urging and travel to see Song, I have their details on file, so contact me
Last edited by webslave on Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by scotsman »

Yes, I've read Debbie's posts on other forums and they really are bizarre in how promotional they are - just smells so wrong.

What I don't understand is why those sufferers don't try the Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol, given that it doesn't have to cost anything - apart from buying a cheap book (though they can probably read enough on the net for free to kick things off). Relaxation, stretching and self administered triggerpoint work can all give benefits.

Richard.
Not medical advice: Read my progress to date : Read about my W-A clinic visit

Age: 41 CPPS: 7 Yrs Recovery Status: 90% Symptoms: Pain around perineum Makes Worse: Tension, sitting Makes Better: Stretching, triggerpoint therapy, relaxation, Tramadol (50mg)
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Post by webslave »

And most of the group who are apparently off to see Song soon, blithely paying tens of thousands of dollars, are neither members of this forum nor have they coughed up the few dollars for A HEADACHE IN THE PELVIS.

All of which makes me think they are, in the main, not real people.
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Post by webslave »

In a further development, the Song-pushing posters called Rob and Debbie (Debbie may be the same person as Rob since her frequent use of the word "jackshit" makes me think "she" is actually a "he") are now moderators on the other forum, in addition to other newly-appointed moderators whose only purpose there is to promote Song, however subtly ("I believe in him," the moderator "cooper" states disturbingly). This reminds me that the site in question, while refusing to link to our website, has long carried a list of nondescript urologists' sites on their Links page. The uros linked to from their website are not researchers or outstanding uros or deserving in any way of the linkage, no, they are just paying customers (this is similar to the way Google gives prominence to paying sites). The alacrity with which the promoters of Song's outrageously expensive treatment have been allowed to dominate their forum, deleting all sceptical posters' comments, makes it clear to me that a financial arrangement is almost certainly in place there. This is not surprising, because we know that the man behind the website, Bradley Hennenfent, ex-MD, has had a long relationship with other unpalatable figures on the prostatitis scene, like Dick Feliciano. His "foundation" has also given money — money donated in good faith to their foundation by sufferers — to these questionable people for "studies" (studies that never happened/were never published). Under-the-table handshake agreements and back-scratching abound. The whole thing stinks to high heaven and should be investigated by the IRS and FBI.

I now do not hesitate to unequivocally condemn the treatment offered by Song from Changsha in the People's Republic of China. I also condemn prostatitis--dot--org, once again, for the abuse of their google ranking to solicit money and hype the self-promotional web of other Hennenfent sites, for their continued promotion of outdated and disproved theories for their own ends, and for their attempt to destroy our website by any means, including legal threats and removing our link from wikipedia's page on Prostatitis. Despite this, our site and forum will continue to stand like a beacon of light in a very dark and stormy sea, full of evil monsters.

Sufferers of chronic prostatitis / chronic pelvic pain syndrome should be wary indeed, for you truly are travelling in "The Valley of the Shadow of Death", populated in many areas by mountebanks, charlatans, ignoramuses and thieves.

Image
Last edited by webslave on Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Sleeper Service »

Well said. The thing about 'the-site-that-shalt-not-be-named' is how woefully out of date it is. I'm not talking about this even in terms of medical opinion on this complex syndrome, I'm just talking about the site's presentation itself.

It seems to me that the owner is more concerned with gathering revenue than maintenance and presentation which I think tells me pretty much what I need to know about which site is the better data source.

As for opinion on Dr Song, if this man was the philanthropist he claims to be then surely he would be spreading the word in terms of teaching others his treatments or publishing papers for peer review? As this doesn't seem to be happening - as opposed to those who are promoting particular treatments such as Drs Wise, Anderson, Shoskes, Weiss, Guercini (who advocates a similar protocol but isn't afraid to go public or feels the need to employ stooges) and others - one must remain more than a little skeptical about his claims.
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Post by webslave »

Good points, Sleeper. "Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive" ... :sad:

Interesting note: one of Song's agents, Rob, who claims he was cured by Song, is now saying he plans to seek more treatment from Song, this time supposedly to "remove calcifications". So we have to ask, when is a cure truly a cure? There are reportedly other patients who have visited Song several times; they must be (a) wealthy (b) a little dim. :roll:
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Post by Sleeper Service »

After having a number of posts - around 10 - deleted from the other board I have come to the conclusion that there are some decidedly odd practices happening there.

Now, I could understand posts which were in topics that - rightly or wrongly - were nuked by the mods, however I've lost another four or five that were in other topics, not confrontational, well written and which merely questioned certain statements made by the board's moderators.

The one that particularly worries me is where I challenged Arnold and Debbie's assertion that no-one gets better from chronic prostatitis / chronic pelvic pain syndrome naturally and that one must treat an underlying infection to be cured. Clearly this doesn't tie in with the admittedly limited research we have on this matter from Nickel and others - which as a snapshot shows about a third of men resolving their symptoms over a year long period - as well as the anecdotal comments of Uros who post on this site and those we consult privately who point out the trend for most of us is to get better with time.

It is also disturbing that following these claims there are then hefty endorsements of the protocols followed by Drs Feliciano and Song, the very people who can perhaps find that mysterious hidden pathogen for you if only you are prepared to part with a substantial amount of cash for them to do so.

Another mysteriously deleted post referred to a challenge around Dr Song's alleged 'special' ELISA test for Chlamydia. As you may or may not know, an ELISA test is a simple and quick test that checks for antigens - in this case Chlamydia. It has nothing like the sensitivity or accuracy of a NAAT test which finds Chlamydia's genetic material. Again my post in reply to Debbie's rebuttal and assertion was deleted.

Members may wish to draw their own conclusions from these actions.
Age 52: Onset 2006 and bouts on and off since then. See posts for details.
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Post by webslave »

Sleeper, it's actually quite amusing what's posted there, once you identify what's really going on. I just love this quote from "debbie", it gives the whole game away:
Agent Debbie wrote:Dr. Song uses a specific ELISA test which is 97% accurate. He said in his experience he gets too many false negatives with the other tests. I know this to be true because I had all the other tests performed numerous times in the USA and they were all negative. I went to Songs and had the ELISA and it was +ve... That is the problem with US medicine. They tell you things are the best test when they clearly are not.
:icon_smile_lachuh:
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Post by Sleeper Service »

Yes, that was exactly the post I challenged! I pointed out that all an ELISA test does is find antigens, it's not a question of a 'special' test. I also asked her to provide a rough number for the patients cured out of how many had been to see Dr Song at the same time as her.

Poof! No more post!

Were it not so despicable it would be funny. It's just a shame to see people falling for it hook line and sinker.
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Post by webslave »

I got a message from Dell4444, which I reproduce here:
webslave wrote:
Dell4444 wrote:Webslave-- I think that the site vs. site craziness has gotten out of control. I have read your posts on this site, and I believe that you are probably one of the most knowledgeable people in the world on prostatitis. Unfortunately, I believe that you have gotten the Debbie and Rob thing wrong. Instead of hypothesizing that Debbie and Rob are "imposters", why don't you talk to them. They give out their email address on the other site, and will talk to you on the phone if you'd like. I too was skeptical in the beginning, but after doing significant research and then talking on the phone to 4 different people who went to Dr. Song (including Debbie and Rob), I am convinced that he is able to help some people, just like I am convinced that SP is able to help some people. Why not reach out to them? They are very open/honest people who are trying to do exactly what you are doing, which is help people with prostatitis. Also, you can ask them anything you want to verify the honesty as to who they say they are.

Just so you know, I agree that there are many people who have non-infectious prostatitis, it's just that I believe that I do have an infection (headaches, bodyaches, low-grade fever, etc). I also think that is why people feel so strongly one way or the other on prostatitis--because it could be two completely separate issues that get grouped into the same camp (or 4 issues if you want to use the NIH classifications).
Dell

Rob and Debbie are behaving so unlike any patients I have ever seen before that I am quite sure they are agents, in one way or another, for Dr Song. They are behaving completely unlike the way people who have been cured of any disease behave. Cured patients usually post a message telling others of how they were cured, but then they move on, and we have many examples of that on our forum. People want to get over this thing and carry on with their lives. They are sick of it. I have monitored the other site for a few days and found that Rob and/or Debbie were there almost the entire day, every hour or two, even in the middle of the night, US time. This is simply NOT the behaviour of cured ex-patients who have lives to live! It is the behaviour of employees who have a task to perform. We already know from poster "fjt" that Song has plants who use online forums to recruit patients. Fjt is a real person, not a figment of my imagination or a sock puppet. He's been to see Song, he was ripped off, and he met all the other patients there, none of whom were better. He was bribed by Song to shut up. That alone should make you run a million miles, for heaven's sake! Fjt had absolutely no reason to mislead me, no possible way to profit from telling me a pack of lies. He is someone who hails from a country I know intimately and I corresponded with him in another language, making sure he was the genuine article, and he is simply NOT a dishonest source, so I believe him 100%.

In the meantime "debbie" has become a virago, swearing and deleting posts that challenge her in any way, telling anyone that questioning her veracity or even arguing about which test is best for chlamydia "will not be tolerated"! Are you kidding me! This is so clearly the behaviour of someone with an agenda that I do not need to think for more than a second about it. Her arrogance and bombastic statements convince me that she has the full support of the site's owner, and this bespeaks an arrangement of some sort. I have trouble getting moderators to make any changes to any posts here, so careful and respectful are they, but debbie and cooper are deleting scores of posts at will, immediately upon obtaining moderatorship. Hello? This is not how normal moderators behave.

Song has a set of ex-patients who will try to recruit you, that's true. You can call them, because they know a voice on a phone line is 10x as effective as a written posting. Fjt has said that Song and his employees are extremely devious and use others to lure people to his overpriced clinic. Once again, I believe fjt, because the guy is completely above board, an ordinary businessman, and a true patient who has seen the whole Song operation, spoken to lots of real patients, and was also suckered in by these "approachable" Amway-like clones. I stake my reputation and credibility on the trustworthiness of fjt. I wish I could get him to fight this fight himself, but he felt very intimidated by Song and his network, and wanted no more to do with the issue. I, however, am not such a shrinking violet, and I relish a fight. I've been threatened by lawyers on more than one occasion, and even had threats to my life a few years ago. I hereby warn anyone thinking of coming after me in person that I will respond proportionately. The last person who attacked me physically had a very poor outcome (a long story I will not go into now), so be very careful if you plan to target me. :grrr:

All these supposed sufferers who have apparently charged off to pay Song $20k+ after just a week or two of online discussion ... I doubt many of them are real. More sock puppets, easily created, although perhaps a real one is in there somewhere. But get ready for them all to "return" and pose as cured patients, for that is how a scam works. And if anyone comes back and tells the truth, there's always the delete button, as we have seen.

FYI, I too had headaches, body aches, and feverish malaise. These are very normal for people with CP/CPPS, especially those who have a CFS-like component. I also had sore/tender lymph glands all over my body. But guess what — none of these are symptoms of true chronic bacterial prostatitis. So despite your claims of researching this disorder, you are ignorant of the basic facts, and your erroneous assumptions have led you astray. Dell, I suggest you start off with other sorts of treatment, most of them free, or nearly so. I'm not trying to recruit you to see DW's team (although that is about ¼ of the price of going to Song). You can try a whole host of things before seeking a Stanford-style treatment from a whole list of therapists (see our list of recommended therapists, none of whom pay this website anything).

Enough, this is boring and too obvious. I'll post this in the forum too.
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Post by Sleeper Service »

Once again Debbie has deleted my question from the other board. Fortunately I took screenshots of both the posts and her previous comment which she has edited to suit afterwards

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/5018/debbie1pe5.jpg

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6896/debbie2ub1.jpg

As you can see - and if you compare her posts - there has been quite a change in her attitude. I have pointed out that I have been neither defamatory to Dr Song or her but that I have merely asked a question in order to raise the issue that she is promoting a $20K procedure without allowing any dissenting voices to be heard. Debbie, however, is abusing her privilege as a moderator to remove these posts.

I was once a moderator for a very large on-line gaming community. I reported to a Super Mod and an Admin all of whom would have had my guts for garters if I deleted or edited a post without tagging why. It's just not done - even when removing porn or race hate we had to leave the original header, remove the content and explain why it had been blanked. As far as I can understand it this is the normal way things are done.

I have no option but to draw the conclusion that Debbie and Rob are indeed paid shills. Perhaps the treatment has worked - or partially worked for them - and they have an agreement with Dr Song that he will waive further costs if they act as Judas goats to lead fresh customers to him - after all, they claim not to be well off despite having been to see Dr Song twice with a third trip planned. Perhaps they can sop their conscience by thinking that "Hey it may work so what's the harm?" but they are robbing people of the right to make an informed choice.

I would advise everyone to take the content of the other board with a pinch of salt. It's smells of a scam to me and not even an original scam at that.

Webslave - if you want to post this in a more public place then more than happy for you to do so.
Age 52: Onset 2006 and bouts on and off since then. See posts for details.
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Post by webslave »

Well done, SS, you've caught them in the act, a slam dunk. I don't think anyone seeing that evidence will be left in any doubt about the other site's credibility.

And please note that she has edited her own response SIX TIMES! That shows you the level of concern and motivation involved. We are witnessing someone with a goal here, not a disinterested good Samaritan.
Last edited by webslave on Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Dell4444 »

Webslave--I have to say that your response is very wierd. If you reread my post, all that I say is that you should try to have a conversation with Rob or Debbie (Sleeper Service, I suggest you do as well). Just talk to them, they will talk to you. If you're so concerned for the people on this board, so why not investigate their claims and talk to them?

In regards to your claims that Dr. Song is a scam, I believe that you stated in the other Dr. Song thread that you would "say no more" on this subject until I came back and posted my treatment. That obviously didn't happen.

Lastly, your warning as to what could happen if I try to "target" you physically is also very wierd. I have never threatened you or anybody else, so what's up with that?

Instead of calling everybody who is considering going to, or posting a success story of Dr. Song a fake or an imposter, why don't you actually talk to these people. Who knows you might learn something, or you might learn something that will conclusively prove your point that they are liars. Either way, it will put this whole issue to bed.
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Post by webslave »

Dell4444 wrote:Webslave--I have to say that your response is very wierd. If you reread my post, all that I say is that you should try to have a conversation with Rob or Debbie (Sleeper Service, I suggest you do as well). Just talk to them, they will talk to you. If you're so concerned for the people on this board, so why not investigate their claims and talk to them?
I thought I explained why talking to salespeople is not on my agenda.
In regards to your claims that Dr. Song is a scam, I believe that you stated in the other Dr. Song thread that you would "say no more" on this subject until I came back and posted my treatment. That obviously didn't happen.
That was before his minions were appointed moderators and began bad-mouthing Dr Shoskes, the Stanford/Wise-Anderson Protocol, this website and me.
Lastly, your warning as to what could happen if I try to "target" you physically is also very wierd. I have never threatened you or anybody else, so what's up with that?
I was not referring to you at all, and I now see that the uneven reading comprehension that led you to assume that I was is probably the same frailty of intellect that has led you astray with treatment options.
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